“Reconciliation will take
a long time”
According to Father Lancelote Rodrigues only a new generation
of leaders will be prepared to normalize relations between Beijing
and the Vatican.
When he was first invited to celebrate mass, back in 1949, Father Lancelote Rodrigues was allowed to choose a church for his debut – and he did not hesitate for a moment. Instead of the Cathedral or any other imposing temple at the city’s centre, he picked a small chapel at the Canídromo (the Greyhound racing track), in the populated northern tip of Macau, where for months he had been assisting Portuguese refugees from Shanghai who have escaped civil war in China. The enthusiasm and dedication he showed in what was actually his first mission after being ordained priest, helping “rich and educated people that found themselves virtually empty handed”, would ultimately shape his life. For half a century he has coordinated relief operations aimed at successive waves of refugees that came to Macau in the wake of regional conflicts, famine and natural disasters. Among his most well known missions, he helped to relocate thousands of boat people from Vietnam in the late 70’s, acting in the process as the local representative of the governments of the United States, Great Britain and Australia. More recently he turned his efforts to China, where he supervised education and healthcare investments in remote areas.
Now 84 years of age, Father Lancelote Rodrigues is in semi-retirement ever since the local Catholic leadership closed his office two years ago. In a recent interview with Macau Closer, this charming clergyman from Malacca described the current situation of the Catholic Church in the territory and elsewhere in China and, as frankly as ever, explained what needs to be changed.
Almost 10 years after Macau’s handover, what’s the situation of the Catholic Church in the territory? How did it change in this period?
Father Lancelote Rodrigues – The Catholic Church is eternal. It goes until the end of times. We try to do whatever God asks us to do, to preach the world. That is the most important thing to us. Regarding changes, we are maybe in a better position now because we carry on our activities according to the principle “One Country, Two Systems”. Freedom of religion here is real freedom, because we can have our own churches, our own masses, our own demonstrations of faith, our own conferences, our own schools. So, we keep doing our work, always having in mind the people. We are here for the people – not only the Christians, but for all the population of Macau.
Nevertheless, the Catholic Church had to make some financial readjustments after the handover, right?
The Church is doing its best to emulate what is fair. Payment of our schools teachers, for instance, has to be corrected, because it seems the Church is not paying too well, especially when compared with the government. We have to pay our teachers the right salary for them to live in this world. On the other hand, the Church has lost some privileges. We priests used to be paid by the government – but not anymore. Now the Diocese pays us.
As well as before?
Not as well as before. We are paid 5,000 Patacas a month now, we live in the church, we don’t pay rent, we don’t pay electricity, we pay something for the food, and that’s it. It’s not much but we can make ends meet. We have no more paid holidays in Portugal as before, and other benefits are all gone. The only thing we kept was free healthcare. But if this is what the Diocese can afford to pay, it’s fine.
Does the Catholic Church still have room to grow in Macau?
Yes, we grow our own way. For instance, mainly non-Christians populate our schools and we basically try to teach them how to become good citizens. That’s the most important part of the Church’s role. The formation of a holistic person – that’s our main role.
But is it losing influence?
Well, the Concordata (the old treaty between Portugal and the Vatican) is no longer in effect, and so the Church lost all its privileges. But we are someone that the government can count upon on education and on social work. Caritas, for example, is doing a tremendous job. If there were no Caritas, the government would have to find people to take care of the underprivileged. But this is in fact our mission. They depend a lot on us, and they respect us for this. And we also respect the government. In the old days we used to have a lot of assistance from the Portuguese Government, although they could give us more. Even now the MSAR government could give more assistance to the institutions that work for the people, so we can do a better job. After all, we have to pay salaries to people that work with us – and God knows how hard they work! Most of these jobs are not wanted by locals – and so Church must find someone to do it. That’s why we have Sisters coming from afar. We take care of old and young people, handicapped people, the blind, the deaf and the dumb, the lepers, the victims of HIV, the single mothers and all those in general who are rejected by society.
Is that effort sustainable in the long term?
There’s always lack of money. The more money, the more can be done. Recently, Paul Pun of Caritas was calling for more financial assistance to carry on their work. So, what they give us is alright but we have to break our heads in order to get some more money, because it’s never sufficient. We have to take care of our people.
Have you got any idea of how much money the Church spends in all those activities?
Only the Diocese of Macau can tell. They’ve never told us, and unfortunately they never told the public. We should have our own auditing – but we never had it, and that’s bad (laughs). People, of course, want to know how many millions we have and how many millions we spend.
Who is not willing to show those figures? Is it locally or is it Vatican’s guidelines?
No, the Vatican has nothing to do with it. I think it would be a good idea to show them, so people could have an idea of what we do with our money. That would be very important. For instance, the Catholic Relief Services here – before the bishop closed my office…
Did he? Why?
Well, because there’s Caritas over there and maybe they didn’t want to duplicate some services. There was a reason for it. Anyway, when I was not on my own I had to submit my budget, and this was the only office that had audits. We used to receive funds from international sources to work inside China, until they stopped sending the money because China was getting richer, and also because they didn’t need to go through Macau anymore to work there. But we feel happy that we had 10 years of this, 10 years of going up and down, building hospitals, a lot of clinics, plenty of primary schools, in Yunnan and Sichuan provinces, in Harbin, in many mountain and remote areas.
Back to Macau, are masses celebrated in as many languages as the community needs, despite the current priest shortage?
Yes, we have them in Portuguese, in Chinese and in English. The Filipinos are the most regular attendants of our celebrations and, in my opinion, they should be awarded a church for their own masses. There are Filipino priests working here, so why not? I’m saying this because some of them used to complain to me, they are always moving from one church to another. I hope the bishop and their representatives can reach an agreement.
Macau is changing a lot and people are getting more and more obsessed with money. How difficult is it to spread God’s message in this kind of environment?
Very, very difficult. Now we have here all sorts of entertainments, and no-one cares to attend mass anymore. People only seek spiritual guidance when they are almost dead (laughs). Most of the youngsters, right after the first communion they forget about the Church, because there’s no continuity at home. We try to encourage them, but it’s very hard. And we lack more priests. We recently brought a few from Korea and we wanted to bring some more from Portugal, but they are also badly needed there. One that used to work with us here is now in charge of seven different churches back in Portugal. They don’t allow him to return.
We have to do something to reverse this trend. We have to do something to get out of ourselves, to join the people. We have to socialize; we have even to have a drink with people (laughs). Otherwise, we go nowhere.
Would you say you have a lot to learn from evangelic churches?
Yes, sure. We are still in the 19th century. We have to adjust.
Have you been following this controversy about (US Senator) Barack Obama’s reverend speeches? Racist or other negative remarks aside, do you think the Catholic Church should have the same sort of political and social engagement?
Oh yes, we need a lot of these fellows, who really can talk to people. Like I said in a previous interview, we need to find our own junkets, like the casinos, if we want to attract people (laughs). We are too inactive, we are stagnant, while they are doing great in Singapore and in Hong Kong, for instance.
In Hong Kong there’s a very outspoken bishop; would it help to have someone like him here?
Why not? I would like to see someone like him here, yes.
Someone who would be willing to regularly stand by human rights issues?
Yes, we have to fight for something. Otherwise, you just let it go. It’s laisser faire, laisser vivre. But we are fighters. I prefer action. We have values, and we have to do something. We have to go out and talk.
Do you share common views that social injustices are increasing in Macau?
Well, it’s a fact that wealth is growing, and we also know that the government is taking some steps in order to assist the elderly and the less privileged. But it’s also true that there’s still poverty in Macau. And whenever the government comes out with some measures to improve things, it seems the benefits are similar for the poor and for those who enjoy a good income. And for me this is something that makes no sense.
In the so-called ‘City of Sin’, where gambling is so predominant, what sort of role should the Church assume?
Well, there’s nothing we can do about gambling – Macau depends on it. But we advise people to take care of their families. We don’t tell them: ‘Don’t gamble’! That would be counterproductive. But we tell them to look after their families, to keep them together. And privately we can be even more persuasive. Contrary to what many say, gambling is a huge problem among local families. Fortunately, civil servants are not allowed to gamble, and it might also be a good idea to raise gambler’s minimum age from 18 to 21 years.
The Vatican seems to be worried with some other modern sins, such as genetic manipulation, social injustices, crimes against the environment, paedophilia, among others. Do you believe it is indeed necessary to update the list of capital sins?
For me, everything is already written in the Ten Commandments. It’s all embedded in there. Common sense will tell us what is wrong. Common sense will tell us the significance of the command ‘You should not kill’. Abortion, for example, that’s killing. Whatever you may think about it, it’s killing. Disrespect for Mother Nature ultimately is like poisoning people; again, it is killing. Common sense is the keyword here. Paedophilia is against Nature, so it’s a sin. Gay marriages, also. You don’t need to go to the Bible to see what is wrong or not. The human cloning, for instance, everyone will tell you this is something unacceptable.
Well, genetic experiments are essential to bring up huge advances in medical sciences, are they not?
I wonder. I do not favour any of that. And I prefer to let the Vatican tell me what to do, because they are the masters (laughs). They have their own scientists.
As they did in Galileo’s days…
(Laughs) Sure, everyone can make mistakes. But you know what they say about him even today? ‘He was a great scientist, alright, but he was a bad theologian’ (laughs). The Church made a mistake there, sure, but it asked forgiveness for it.
Maybe it will have to do the same in a few years time…
No doubt. The only thing where they cannot afford any mistake it’s on dogmatic issues. In other matters, it’s not as important.
The Vatican has recently decided to set up a commission to deal with China. Do you believe a true reconciliation between Beijing and Rome is now around the corner?
For me, only dialogue will tell. We have to talk, and talk, and talk, until we are tired of it. It’s the only way. We have to be respectful of each other, and we also have to be constructive. Beijing does not accept a Vatican ambassador stationed in Taiwan, and ultimately the Holy See will drop it. Taiwan knows it and they even understand it. They just don’t want to be left alone, so the Vatican will keep giving them some kind of support. But the transfer to Beijing of the Vatican’s ambassador, that will be done – no doubt about that. The major problem now seems to be this Chinese idea that the Church is a political party. No, we are not a party. We do not pretend to go against the Chinese government. We encourage people to be patriotic because we feel this is something very important in every nation. We only want their hearts. What for? To persuade them to love God and to love their neighbour – that’s all. We are not a party! We teach people to obey the laws of the Church, and by doing that we reinforce their willingness to obey the orders of the government. We teach people to defend what is right, and to reject what is wrong. We help to form good citizens.
When do you predict a major agreement between Beijing and the Vatican?
Well, reconciliation will take a long time – it will not happen in the near future. It’s something for the new generation of leaders that will come up. Ideas are very difficult to change. For 40 years they were without God, so to say. All missionaries were thrown out, Catholics, Protestants, Buddhists, all out. It was officially an atheist government. Now it’s not easy to convince them we just want to help.
What kind of role can Macau have in this process?
Macau can do a lot. If they want it, Macau may welcome seminarians from China to study here. If the Chinese government wants it, we can help them form their priests.
How’s the Church in China these days?
It’s doing pretty well, both the Patriotic and the Underground ones. I’ve worked with them all. These young priests are very good. We gave them motorcycles to help them reach remote places. With very little, they do a lot. And the bishops, all of them have been already in jail. That has made them strong. But now they’re getting along better with the authorities, which is good. The same applies to other s. I saw many temples destroyed in China, but I also saw many temples crowded, which is good because religion is something quite important. People need some sort of spiritual life.
What do you think about what’s going on in Tibet?
I say what the Pope has often said, that there should be no violence. But why is all that happening? They want freedom, that’s the point. They want freedom of religion, which has been suppressed for so long. The Dalai Lama is gone, and if this continues the Tibetan religion and culture will ultimately disappear. That’s what they feel – I hope not. Both sides should be open to dialogue. Fighting is not a solution. Of course, someone has started these riots, but 40 years is too long, don’t you think so? It’s a shame this is happening. They are a mild people, and China has to think it over carefully enough.